Max Rohr | How to Stay Ahead of the Curve in Your HVAC Company
Cheryl McRae
Josh Smith
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Max Rohr is the Marketing Academy Manager of Building Solutions for REHAU Academy and the host of the podcast REHAU Academy on Air. REHAU is a sustainable, polymer-based solution company focused on improving energy efficiency in businesses, homes, and automobiles. He shares how growing up in the home services trades shaped his passion for radiant heating and cooling, and why you should never be afraid to pitch your premium product.
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the sharpest tool. My name is Josh Smith
and I am your host, the vice president of marketing of home services over
here at scorpion. And today on the podcast, we have max Rohr, who is the
marketing academy manager of building solutions for Ray, how he has worked
in the installation, hydronics and solar industries since 1998. And, uh,
we're really excited to have you on the show, max.
Yeah. It's to be, you happen to be the son of, uh, Ellen Rohr, who we've
had on this show. We love Ellen, and I know we're going to love you to
bring to the table. You have your own podcast, you have a newborn to,
So we call it radio academy on air and we're doing a second season this
year, and it's more of a discussion about some of the problems that our
customers are solving, uh, on topics like snow and ice melt and radiant
heating and cooling, uh, district energy, things like that. So we've changed
the format a little bit to see, uh, kind of to learn from our cool customer
projects, more so than just to lecture people about the science of the
technology. So
So I'm a fourth generation in the plumbing and heating industry. Uh, I
worked with my parents. Uh, they had a family plumbing heating and solar
business. Uh, when I was a kid, um, as early as department of child labor
will allow my dad to say that I went to work with him, but I think it
was when I was old enough to not wander away or crawl away or something
like that. So, uh, I love hydronics. That's kind of my favorite, uh, thing
in the world. And, um, buildings are super important and what we can do
with radiant heating and radiant cooling is really get to those like net
zero energy, lofty lead platinum, uh, project goals. And it is something
that I just I've really enjoyed being in this industry. Yeah.
Yeah, so water can move 3,500 times more energy per volume than air. So
it's a great conveyor belt for moving energy around a building it's widely
utilized in Europe, uh, partially because it's what they've done for a
long time. Partially because their energy prices are so much higher that
they just need to hit those really, really high energy efficiency goals
where, uh, the price of energy in the U S has been lower for so long.
And we move so frequently that people sometimes want to invest in radiant
heating and radiant cooling. But the energy information agency, uh, in
a 2012 study said that radiant heating saves about 32%, uh, energy on
especially commercial projects. So it's a great way to maintain comfort
and have energy efficiency, kind of both in the same package, which is
one of the reasons that I love to talk about it.
Sure. So, uh, that study, um, more so than transportation. So buildings
use more energy than all the planes and trains and automobiles in the
world. So if you could take your car to an auto mechanic and have him
flip a switch and make it 30% more energy efficient, that would be pretty
incredible. And the people listening to this in the service industry know
how to do that. They can fix these problems and make buildings so much
better. I think that we're starting with a pretty low baseline respective
to the amount of accessible technology that we have in the world. So a
lot of big problems that we can solve with the tools that you can go pick
up at a wholesaler today. Yeah.
Do you find, I'm just curious on this point, do you find a lot of home
services, um, service businesses are putting this out there as an offering?
Is it, or is this something that a lot typically miss?
So I think that whoever's listening to the car right now finds like a premium
plus offering. That's one of the things that I'm passionate about. So
whatever your best version of equipment, uh, that you would pitch to a
customer, find something that's even better because it's out there. So
we can go with that, like absolutely platinum platinum offering, if it's
an ECM pump or an air to water, heat, pump water, to water geo exchange
system, something that really works well with radiant heating and cooling.
That's kind of the world that I live in, but even just in a standard at
forced air, there are so many great technologies available. Uh, and I
think that one of the things as an industry we don't always do well is,
uh, not pitch that premium option. I think that in some ways, uh, when
I've been a consumer and I have gone to a store to ask for something and
they pitched me the middle of the road, uh, product, I kind of find it
insulting if I was like ready to get the best version of what's out there.
So whatever your premium is, uh, look for something that's maybe five
or 10 years ahead of right now. Uh, because that's, that's what customers
want to at least be offered. And you'd be surprised how many times people
will say yes.
So I think that, uh, one of the things that, um, is an, an issue for an
industry and has been very interesting this year is I think we have a
self-confidence problem. I think that there are some people that will
pitch you the best version of the speakers at best buy, because what do
they have to lose? But I think that we're afraid of rejection and necessarily
not seeing the value in ourselves as a trade, that we are absolutely worth
it. I think this year has been so interesting because everyone has said,
oh no, plumbers and HVAC people are essential. We need them. When was
the last time you heard that it's been such a weird year in that sense.
And I think that we need to not forget that and say, okay, would you like
the, the premium offering of something that is absolutely essential to
the point that we have to go to the front lines in the middle of a pandemic?
Would you like to hear about an ECM pump? Would you like to hear about
a geo exchange system? I can make this building more comfortable or energy
efficient it's I think that that's a, it's been a weird 2020 in that sense,
because we didn't decide that that was whoever the powers that be said,
plumbers are essential. HVAC people are essential and I I've loved it.
I mean, so
You're hitting on something so important. I was having a conversation with
a business owner yesterday, actually, and we were talking about pricing,
right? And, and if this was a different conversation than, um, than hydronics,
but this was based around just how do you even price a business and today's
business world business culture, marketing costs are going up. And what
was coming out of the conversation was you actually go about providing
the value because people buy what people value. And if you're providing
something that's in value, even if it's a premium product, people will
find a way to pay for it. So I think bringing up such a powerful point
of really knowing and understanding the value of what you're providing
the consumer.
I think that one of the things that our industry has quietly done, such
an incredible job of making thermal comfort and plumbing disappear, that
the average homeowner doesn't even think about it. We've done our job
so well that you don't think what happens when we flush the toilet. What
happens when I push up on with thermostat, we've made all of that hide
behind the wall because we do our job well. And if you've installed a
system, well, your homeowner doesn't even know what the equipment is.
They might not even know where it is in a big house. We have just made
it invisible. Sometimes that's harder to upsell. If you don't understand,
you know, you drive your car every day, get in your car and you know what
that feels like. You know what that is. You don't go to your furnace or
go to your boiler every day and experience that you just see kind of the
benefits of it. So being able to paint that picture of what comfort is
a little bit better, opens up the ability to upsell. And it's a, it's
a complex topic. Comfort is not the same for anybody. So you really have
to find a way to make it relatable. And I think that that makes it easier
to pitch that, that upgrade. Wow.
Yeah. So I'm at the highest level with hydronics. What we're doing is we're
circulating with radiant heating and radiant cooling. We're circulating
water through a network of techs, pipe. That's hidden in the walls and
the ceiling embedded in concrete, and then we're warming up a surface
that way. So instead of blowing forced air through the building, warming
up the air, replacing the air with warmer air, what we're doing is we're
warming up. Like you're kind of on a warm beach or something like that.
And what's cool about that is that your thermal comfort profile as a human,
you kind of like warm feet and a little bit cooler head, but that's what
radiant does because it's warming like that as opposed to being in a cloud
of hot air or your head is really warm with HVAC. And one of the things
that as an industry, radiant used to kind of clash with forced air that
like, we're better. We do this better. We're the only way to do it. Building
codes are, are different now that the buildings are so tight that you
need some forced air movement. The buildings used to be leaky enough that
you could get away with the natural infiltration. Now we have to move
some mechanical air. So the best systems commercially, especially are
going to be a hybrid of forced air and radiant to get the best of both
worlds there.
Yeah. And well, you know, you mentioned, I I've heard, it mentioned too
when we're talking about obviously the codes and making sure we've got
to make sure buildings are up to code and we have all of that to consider
as home service professionals. Um, why do you find it to be so important
to get involved in code committees?
Yeah. So this is not the Illuminati in, uh, at the HVAC world. Like you
can just get on the newsletter for the atmo Legionella commission that
they're starting and see if you can get on that, that group where they're
going to start talking about those things. Or even in Washington, DC,
I live in Northern Virginia and DC. They're targeting net zero energy
or carbon neutral by 2050, which is a pretty lofty goal. I went to a meeting
where they started to pitch the initial idea of this. And they're like,
and if you guys have any like ideas, let us know, like jump on those opportunities,
be the person who actually technically technically knows what's going
on and you can help drive those things. Or at least if you can't control
what's happening, understand how you as a service professional or a new
construction can work with that, know what form you need to download,
know what numbers you need to pay attention to. And you can really, uh,
get ahead of these codes. And I think it's just such a great niche market
to be five years ahead of the energy codes in your cities. Even if it
doesn't apply to you yet just stay in front of it. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. That's such good information. So for everybody listening, you
definitely want to think about how you can implement this and incorporate
this into your heating and cooling business. Because I think is a big
opportunity. A lot of our biggest contractors that are really healthy
corporate account, you know, where they're dealing with a lot of the commercial
buildings, commercial, uh, work that they need to do on some of these
large accounts. And that's where the large majority of their revenue comes
from. So if you're primarily residential, this is probably a fantastic
segue into another revenue stream as a business owner. But I have another
thought I want to kind of move on to, but is there anything you feel like
home service business owners need to know about hydronics before we jump
into a business operations, which I'm curious to get your thoughts on? Sure.
I think that it's something that is completely underutilized in the U S
especially radiant cooling. Uh, that's something that we don't do a lot
of and radiant heating has traditionally been a good fit in, uh, the mountains
places where energy is very expensive, reading, cooling, compete anywhere,
and you gain those benefits. Uh, what you need to know is the forced air
side pretty well. So I think that it's, it's a nice option for people
that are doing traditional HVAC to branch out, into reading and cooling,
and then be that person who can solve those, you know, 30% energy savings
you blowing ASHRAE 90.1, uh, out of the water and really be the hero for
your engineers and to be known as that person, that, that guy or that
girl that can tackle those projects, I think is just something that is
a really nice, uh, under utilized. Neat.
Yeah, definitely. So maxi, you had an interesting upbringing, you know,
the minute in the home services business, you did, you were there, what
does it mean to build off a family legacy, but in your own way?
Sure. So I think that, uh, I'm probably not alone in that. Uh, I have struggled
with my place in the trades because I grew up in both of my parents had
really cool careers and have done fun things in the trades. Uh, I won't
do exactly what they did and I won't do it better. And I think that that's
an unrealistic thing to target for yourself. I think there are probably
in any business, uh, things that are just, you're not going to do it the
same way that your parents did it, nor should you. So I think that finding
your spin and how you can find some personal interest in what you do,
maybe you guys are great at service and, uh, you want to expand into new
construction or you want to be that person who's going to expand into
the really energy efficient upgrades and say, you know what, in five years,
the energy code is going to be different. Do you want to get ahead of
that? Do you want me to pitch you that option? That could be a way to
kind of find something that you can sink your teeth into that may be related
to what your parents did, but you're not just chasing them. Cause I don't
think that you'll ever find that. I don't know that you'll find happiness
in it, uh, which is something that I had to kind of go away from the trades
and come back a little bit to find my place. Yeah.
And goes back to you. You got to find something you're passionate about.
It's so interesting. Max, you've taken a path that is so niche and so
specific. And I think there's a lot of power behind that because you become
the expert in that and you're passionate about it. So you're gonna go
further and do more than your average person's going to do, which is fantastic.
What would you say is some of the pros and cons that you found in being
your own boss?
Yeah, so, uh, growing up, uh, my parents owning their own plumbing and
heating company. We had a great schedule. And then if we wanted to take
the motorcycles and go out to the desert on a weekend, they didn't have
to get approval from the big boss or anything like that. You could just
do that. Uh, as a pro the downside is that when the phone rings on Thanksgiving
and your best customer needs a water heater to be replaced, you go do
that. So that's kind of your, there's the one to, uh, to take that phone
call or else you're going to have an unhappy customer. So I think finding
your balance there, uh, is hard as well. Uh, what do you want, do you
want to, a path of least resistance is just to jump right back into what
your parents have been doing and continue on that way. And then it may
take some soul searching to figure out if and how you want to do that
differently and what your ideal schedule or Workday looks like.
So right now we've had, uh, during the COVID crisis, we've had good luck
with webinars and it kind of a mixture of discussion as well as just a
regular presenting a topic. But I think that people are more interested
in that, uh, that discussion right now. And when we're at our best, we're
asking a lot of questions of our customers and listening and asking good
open-ended questions to kind of see what we can do better. I think that
manufacturers will try and figure out how they can be the best, how they
can be the coolest. And I think that the most effective manufacturers
are the ones that figure out how to make their customers happy and are
paying enough attention to say, we need to offer that product. We need
to offer a solution for that group. That's really innovative. And that's
what we hope that we do on a good day.
I think that just listening open-ended questions, I think, especially as
salespeople, we're quick to jump into the solutions that we think will
fix the problem. When we may not a hundred percent understand what the
customer is asking for or what they're experiencing, and especially in
the world of comfort that someone could say, I'm uncomfortable in my house
and I can say, okay, brilliant heating system. Here you go. And maybe
their interpretation of comfort is that they hate the noise. They're perfectly
thermally, they're perfectly comfortable, but they hate the noise. And
if you just jump to that solution, you're not going to find that underlying
issue. So, uh, definitely listening more than talking as a salespeople.
I think that that's when we're at our best,
It was a fun, a fun phrase. A sales trainer told me once that shut up and
get rich step back and actually just listen, listen to your customers
because that's where ultimately the money is because you solving a problem
that they have. Um, in your opinion, what's the one thing business professionals
in the trades should not stop doing right now, especially amidst the COVID,
the writing that's going on, that the entire country's in the state of
crisis. It seems, what should we not stop doing? Right. Yeah.
Uh, learning, I think that as much as you can stay, it's been a weird time
right now, also that there's been a big, like boom, in the amount of different
things that you can learn with webinars and different people that are
jumping on these E platforms instead of just the PowerPoint in front of
a room. So soak up as much as you can research your region or your state
and see what codes are the corner and, and jump on those things. And don't
just go back to business as usual at the end of this year, because it's
going to move so fast. And if you don't have a niche, people are gonna
be desperate to just take jobs at really low prices. And it's not a game
that you want to call.
Absolutely. Totally agree. This is all honestly great information, max
really appreciate you taking the time. Is there anything else in closing
you want to make sure our home service business owners know,
I think just find your place in the world and what you do is essential.
And after 2020, don't forget it because it's an important part of our
identity is as people in the trades and that's how we can confidently
pitch that premium product and, and sell a lot of it and make money.
Yeah. I like to thank you max, for joining us on the sharpest tool, the
information you shared, honestly, it's fantastic for any business owner
looking to expand their service offering right now. So if, uh, if people
want to reach you, where can they find you? Sure.
So we've got more education resources, N a dot [inaudible] dot com slash
academy. You can see all of our training stuff there, and then you can
poke around our website, which is new this year as well.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, max. Appreciate being on the show and
congratulations on a new baby Luca again. Thank you. Very welcome. Definitely
hit that like button and give that subscribe button a little tap wherever
you might be listening at. So you can get more of the awesome content
coming to you from the sharpest tool team until next time I'm Justin. Thanks.
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